4,000 Mondays: Jodi Wellman on How to Be Astonishingly Alive

On this episode of Get a Life, Jackie Oña Cascarano chats with Jodi Wellman,  former corporate executive, popular TED speaker, and author of You Only Die Once: How to Make It to the End with No Regrets, about why remembering you're going to die might be the single most powerful tool you have for actually living.

Jodi takes the ancient practice of memento mori and turns it into a refreshingly funny, practical framework for intentional living, and this conversation hits at the heart of what Get a Life is all about: exercising agency, being the main character in your own story, and rewriting what success actually means. Jackie and Jodi dig into the now-viral "Mondays left" calculation (Jackie has 1,882 — and yes, it changed her week), some gut-punch quotes from the likes of Ben Franklin and Hunter S. Thompson (a natural pairing), and why so many high-functioning women in mid-life are quietly living "half dead" inside lives that maybe look great on paper.

They get into the tension every modern woman is navigating right now: the soft life, coziness, and boundaries movement versus the deliberate discomfort that builds mastery, vitality, and what Jodi calls being "astonishingly alive." They talk about temporal scarcity, the most common end-of-life regrets, the productivity trap that defines worth by output, and the sobering reality that 50% of us will die before 70 — so maybe waiting until retirement to start living isn't the move. Jodi also shares how the "4,000 Mondays" lens reshapes ambition for the high-achievers she coaches, and where to start this week if you feel stuck on autopilot but can't overhaul your life.

Whether you're feeling numb, restless, or just ready to stop letting life happen to you, this conversation will leave you with a new way of looking at your calendar — and your one wild, finite life.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Get a Life. This is a podcast for women who feel the pull towards something more. Women ready to become the main characters of their own stories and build lives filled with interesting experiences, passionate pursuits, and adventures big and small. I'm Jackie Cascarano, former lawyer, turned women's wellness coach, and I'm a practitioner of positive psychology, the science of well-being. I help high-achieving women reconnect with themselves and create lives rich with authenticity, alignment, and agency. Welcome to Get a Life. Today I'm chatting with Jodi Wellman, who is a speaker, author, and assistant instructor in the Master of Applied Positive Psychology program at Penn. She's the founder of 4,000 Mondays, and her book, You Only Die Once, How to Make It to the End with No Regrets, made Adam Grant's Summer Reading List and is a next big idea club must read. Jodi's been featured in the New York Times, Oprah Daily, Fast Company, CNBC, among many others. And her TEDx talk called How Death Can Bring You Back to Life has over 1.4 million views. She is hilarious and whip smart, and we had such a good time chatting. So let's jump into the conversation. Hi, Jody. Hi, Jackie. I'm so excited for our conversation today. We do. So your book You Only Die Once is incredible. So I've been reading it. And your book takes this ancient concept of memento mori, which is basically remembering that you will die and turns it into something very practical. And it's basically, and you're going to talk more about it. So I'm just, this is this is my um interpretation of it. It's basically a framework for living more intentionally. And the idea that most of us have like a finite number of Mondays left, which is, and it's and by the way, mine is 1882.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Oh, good for you.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Didn't I didn't like that? I didn't like that calculation, ma'am. Um, so that the concept that we have like a finite number of days.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

And confronting that math is like a very powerful, I would say, antidote to living in autopilot. And what I love about what you did and what you do is blending the research of positive psychology with really dark humor. Like, I don't know how you are talking about death and are so funny. Like it's a really, really hilarious book. Um, but you're a hilarious person, so I guess that makes sense. The the approach for me, and the reason I wanted to invite you on this podcast, is the approach is really foundational to what we talk about here on the Get a Life podcast because it's about living purposefully and exercising agency. We say you want to be the main character of your story a lot. And it's about creating a new framework for success. So I want to dig into all of this. I'm so excited to talk with you. But first and foremost, because this is a podcast about living richly through pursuits that light you up, I would love for you to tell me about yourself. But here, there's a hitch. I don't want your CV because I've already told our listeners all about how professionally impressive you are, which you are very impressive. But I would love for you to tell me what you love to do that's outside of work or family.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I like this. This is the hidden bio of well, at the risk of sounding like I don't get out there and enjoy life. I am gonna be honest and say I get so much out of life in this secl, not secluded, that I shouldn't have led with that. It sounds very antisocial, but curled up with a book on a comfy couch with one, ideally two cats, a glass of wine handy is lovely, and the husband somewhere around. But a little bit of music in the background, just really light me, lame, light music, because I don't want to distract, but reading in a comfy place with comfy jammies.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

I love that. I'm obsessed with that. Can we still be friends if I'm not a cat person? I just wanted to ask you because I do feel like there's a lot of cat content generally when it comes to Jody.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yes. You're yeah, I know you got clover there.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

I do have clover. Yeah, clover is canine going on. Yeah, he's she's um will likely make an appearance. I do, I'm allergic. Otherwise, I do. I I think cats are fine. They're fine people, they're fine. Um, okay, that is wonderful. Let's jump in to the questions. So you went from a successful corporate career to studying positive psychology and now a best-selling author about death. Actually, well, it's you're it's more about life, but it is also about death. Yeah. What please tell us what inspired you to focus on Memento Mori? Was there like a moment in your life that inspired it, or was it sort of an evolution over the experiences of your life?

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Such an interesting question because you just made me realize as you worded it, it's possible that I think it's both. So, you know how there can be this undercurrent theme that you're always sort of interested in. And that for me was this whole carpe diem thing. And I've always been interested in living and self-improvement and um making the most of our lives and all that's really great. And then it's just bonkers that that gets butted up right against the fact that one day we're just gonna all of a sudden poof not be here because we're gonna die. Like that's just it's it's really bizarre, right? It's like, why don't we let us talk about that? But anyway, that was always an interest I had, but I didn't know what to do with it. Like, well, that's not a thing. So then I yes did corporate, and then I yes evolved into leadership development and all that. And I used to coach executive coaching and all that. And then there was a bit of a shake up wake up. Uh, and it was that my mom died when she was 58, and she had what I see now, I saw it then too, as just a ton of coulda, shoulda, woulda's, like regrets that she wanted to live her life and didn't. And evidence was like evidence galore. Like I call her place the land of dormant intentions that I was throwing out all of her dreams, basically. Business ideas, itineraries for trips, uh, manuscripts. Like she just kept thinking she would do it later. One day I'll do it. When she had more confidence, when she had more money, well, you know, we're gonna maybe get to that. The waiting game. I think it's not a game. We're gonna, we're all gonna lose that game. So um, that for me was a wake up because it felt not only so sad that my dear sweet mom died without doing all this stuff she wanted to do, but it was also to be super honest, it was like a mirror that I realized, oh, that's like my ammo. I tend to dream and not always do. So that for me was a philosophical wake up. And then I studied it when I went to the map program at UPenn, this idea of memento morning, that gave me the confidence to say, oh, wait a sec. If a lot of this stuff is actually backed by science, well, then maybe I can talk about it with a little bit more oomph. And so then at that point, I was like, oh, now I can't turn back. Now that I've studied the science of not wanting to get to the end with a bunch of regrets, I can't be the one that gets to the end with regrets that I didn't do something about this.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yes, a thousand percent. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that too. I also have a personal story of a parent who died young. And it does really, it does really impact you. It really does. My my father died at 47, which is insane. I mean, I'm 46, I'm turning 46. And it does really impact how I think you approach life. And I have, I have to tell you, I and I mean this literally, Jody. Like, I've been reading your book and I audiobook. So I walk around the neighborhood and I like I cook things. Not that I, by the way, I don't really cook, but I attempt, I like microwave things, I microwave things with with audiobooks in my ear. And it's really interesting when they're spicy audiobooks, FYI, with the children around, but they're like spicy in my ear. Um, that's a different podcast topic. I've been reading your book and it has really it like it's it's really kind of changed my outlook on my life. I I mean this sincerely. Like I've been reading this and I've been sending emails like to get things done that I've always like wanted to do. And I'm like, let me send that email to that person about the thing that I've been thinking about for a while. So it really is impactful to think about it. I told you I have 1882 more Mondays. Yeah, kind of freaked me out. That's that's not cool, Jody.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Well, thank you for this again, juxtaposition of thoughts, where on one hand, that's not cool. Thanks. I did caught your attitude there. I know what you're up to. And yet, that's the tension point I think we're looking for in acknowledging, right? It's that, ah, it's that awareness. You used the word confrontation earlier in your like ever, like that was like the most perfect summary ever of the book and what I do. Thank you. I gotta write that out transcript-wise to use. But it's the confrontation of it, and it is confrontational. Like, no one wants to talk about this, but we're gonna, and that can be the animating feature. So, like for you, it lit a little tiny fire of like, let me just do this thing. You know, I like talking about it in terms of helping it animate and activate the exciting goals and things. Yeah. But I also want to make room for sometimes it's just the decision to live in a way that is like one small thing that can make the difference of feeling even slightly alive today versus not, like a decision to sit outside and just look at the breeze in the trees and wow, look at the birds and wondering like that is a decision of aliveness that may be in contrast to just answering three more emails, which is usually my stupid default setting. Um, and so I don't want to always because I I come here and I'm like, ooh, let's live carpe diem, but it is sometimes about what you said sending an email that could be just getting something done or moving. It could be a small choice.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah. And you had said something in the book about, and I I I shared this with my husband about, you know, you someone calculated how many more weeks they have left, and they have like 15 ideas for these keynotes, but only maybe they're gonna deliver 10 more keynotes. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah, that scarcity of time. So just to get nerdy for a sec, like temporal scarcity is what it's rooted in in psychological science and even economics. Like when an asset is rare or limited time only, will we value it more? Duh. So, like our lives. So when we count it down, you're 1882. I'm 1710, had a few more Mondays under my belt than you. And but that is the thing where it goes like that's why I say Mondays, not just years left. We're already used to the idea of years left. But what about when you do the thing? Like, how many trips left? Like, big trips are we gonna take left? Like, how many Thanksgivings may you actually have with your parents who, let's be honest, they all have less Mondays than we do if they're even around. Like, obviously, we're we're down apparently each at least. So these are the things where I know it sounds, I don't know why I'm sounding all defensive right now about it, and yet you're even being so positive. I guess it's just for any naysayers who are thinking, ooh, but that sounds so so morose. And so, like, yeah, yeah, well, let's use it to our advantage, only for the spirit of good. Like this limited time situation, it's the only thing I've ever found that has motivated me and many other people I've worked with or groups or whatnot to actually do the thing, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

So let's use it. I love it. I love it. And I was gonna bring up temporal scarcity, so I'm so happy you did. We're we're very like sympathetico right now. I love it. You also mention in your book this phrase astonishingly alive.

unknown 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

And I love it. I'm obsessed with it. And our demographic on the Get Alive podcast are we are women in midlife, balancing all the things. You might identify with that demographic. A lot of us are feeling because the pace is so frenetic, because there is so much stuff to do all the time and caretake for all the people, there's a numbness. I I say numb a lot. Not everyone identifies with that, but I have felt over the course of um my life in this particular chapter, ups and downs, of course, in terms of how frenetic it is, but I've felt very numb. And that's just my word for I kind of feel like life is sort of happening to me. You know, like I'm just sort of this person who receives, it's it's very reactive rather than deliberate.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

And this demographic is seeking a rich, full life. So I love the phrase astonishingly alive. So will you just talk about that a little bit?

unknown 13:14

I'd love to.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

I'd love to. And allow me to qualify it a little bit that your version of Astonishingly alive could be different than mine, that could be different than someone else's. It sounds like we might be similar in like maybe a version of an astonishingly alive night has the book. Fine. You're with a dog, fine, I'm with a cat, but we got this vibe. But someone else is like, yeah, that uh uh I want to be out at the newest restaurant, or I want to be out at a concert in the park, or I want to be in Venice. Well, don't we all? But like whatever it is, or I want to be painting, or I want to be sitting outside and having a party, you fill in the blanks, but your version of Astonishingly alive is very relative. So I never pretend to have a prescription. It's just about tuning into the things that make you feel like you're making in some way a choice to be and feel a vote for aliveness. And so it it really is based on this idea of um widening with the idea of vitality, and that's the fun and the experiences we have in life. It's the frothy stuff, and then it's also the deepening with meaning. And so it's a combination of those two things. It's feeling like, are we having enough fun? And is there also some depth there where there's like maybe connection with a friendship or spirituality or something that feels deeper? And so we, I think we have that niggling sense, right? Your point about going through the motions, life is happening to you. Um, that is so real, especially for those of us who are getting stuff done. And maybe people are relying on us of the animal variety, of the human variety, of the parental variety as they age, right? And I think that I'm not here to lament that and to try to change the that reality, because I don't know how to stop it or change it. I think what we are actually have, we have agency to do is to just interspurse more choices in between all that bananas life. I mean, yes, of course, we we do have the ability to stop and assess our change. I go, but do I need to say yes to all those things? Of course, we could say no. And my argument is that when we really stop and counter Mondays and we go, what the heck am I doing? I don't have what what that does help realign our priorities. But until we do that, even just some choices in between to intersperse life, sprinkle it with a decision to say this Saturday morning, let's shake up that routine. I don't want to be numb to the weekend anymore because it's just that's when I get all the avalanche of chores and all the things done. What if we just went out and walked in a new neighborhood and had the, I don't even know how to pronounce them. I'll never will, Asi bowl asai A-C-A-I with a weird ex ante. What if we did that? And then if I don't like it, it'll be hilarious because we'll just laugh about that time I spat it out on the sidewalk. And then we could go and just sit in the park for a second and have a venti, coffee, and then come home and do the laundry and all the things that, but like that, that's like a vote for life. And I'm even just choosing I'm I don't know why I'm choosing simple examples today on purpose, maybe just to be like, and astonishingly alive life comes in in sometimes for some of us in eatsy weensy doses. It's not a two-week vacation that you book to go to Prague. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

But don't not do that if that's on your plan.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

That's on your radar.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

So here's a tension that I encounter a lot, and I'm so happy you alluded to this before. So I talk a lot about adventure year, which is this um commitment I'm making essentially to get out of my comfort zone for a year by pursuing different hobbies, mini and large adventures throughout the year. So that could include the the bigger adventures, could include travel. The mini adventures really are just getting out of my comfort zone, like snorkeling, open water snorkeling. I did, which was terrible, by the way, terrifying. By the way, terrifying. But that does not seem mini, just for the record jacking. But go on. Thank you. So this, and and great. And exactly to that point, you know, different people have different uh their zones of comfort, right? So for me, that was very scary. A fr a girlfriend of mine is she um scuba dives and she repels from places I don't know. She's very brave. Okay. So for her, that was like, why are you why are you even complaining? Of course, you know, open water snorkeling is is fine. But to that point, like I am pushing myself out of my comfort zone over the course of the year, mahjong, watercolor classes, things big and small. I really want women to start their own adventure years. I would love this. This is this is like my dream. So you've got I've got that perspective of like push yourself out of your comfort zone, do the thing. And I also am very cognizant of the fact that like coziness is having a moment. Like if you see on Instagram or other, I'm not on TikTok, I'm I'm too old, or other social media platforms, there's a lot of like cozy vibes and like boundaries. Like I've got really, you know, high boundaries, and if I don't want to go out, I'm just gonna stay and be cozy. And I what I want to say is that I acknowledge both of those things. Like I feel like being cozy and having boundaries is wonderful. So I love that you mention that like the astonishingly alive experience is just different for each person.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah. Okay, can we all just do this thing? Because like your adventure, yeah, it's gonna take off. We're all gonna jump on board again in our own relative ways. So cool. Love it. This is the inspirational stuff. I think that it's like all a big calibration. And I think that an adventure might be like I looked at we have a tub in our bathroom. We've been here four years. I'm not really a bath person, but I was like, I can plan like a little spa night for myself. And then I immediately decided that that was not in fact for me, but had it been, that would have been an example of a choice to be alive. And it's not about going out, for example. I think it could still be planning. This to me is super decadent. What about a little staycation at a hotel where you stay in and watch movies in the hotel room, comfy, cozy the whole time, order room service? Like, are you with me? I mean, don't literally come into my hotel room, but like conceptually, right? That'll be good. The cozy thing, the cozy movie marathon at home for a weekend where like all pajamas all the time, all the nachos, all the shows, whatever. Like, there are ways that clearly I love sedentary living, but there are ways we can embrace the heigee, I'm not saying it right, but that notion of the higa. Yeah, that's that thing, yeah. And even though, okay, so take take a homebody that really does prefer the coziness. Sometimes it's the well-timed dose of the up and out that actually is that the the world, and I don't know about you, but I'll I'll do a go-out and then come home and go, oh, I did a thing. Like it feels like a rewarding, wow, I'm alive. And it actually carries a lot more mileage in the tank of feeling astonishingly alive than than than one might think. Um, but I think it's just knowing your dose, right? Knowing what it is that, and we all go through these little phases too, where maybe things are really wild if you've got kids, or there's a career time that's just this is a this is my crazy season. Well, then maybe that's the time not necessarily to jam-pack the calendar. But the calendar is boring as this sounds, like this is like snoozy smurf stuff full on. But like that's the ticket to living a life worth living. Because if I I don't know about you, but like I got a lot of good intentions, like my mom. But if I don't book it, all that stuff's just gonna die with me. Those ideas. The cool, oh, I should go to that store. Oh, I should roam and go in to see what's what's in that antique place, or oh, I should have this weekend with a friend, or oh, I always wanted to have a marathon reading thing for a whole Saturday from 8 a.m. to what? Yeah. When?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Mic drop. Mic drop. Really. And what I love also is that the cozy marathon, reading marathon or movie marathon is like what that person needs. It's it's really from my perspective, it's like you you need to clearly discern what you need, which I think a lot of people don't do. You know, they're just moving so quickly through life. But I just I love that.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Well, how did you determine that you needed this adventure here?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

I was a map student. I am still currently a map student for a couple more weeks, and I read a line in a book. For one of our classes, and the line said, We do not pursue things that are interesting or make us interesting. It was a book by Cassie Holmes, who's a professor out of UCLA, and we were learning about time and how precious time is. I'm sure you're familiar with Cassie Holmes. And I had been, I have been in a particular and I do, I really think that, you know, there are ebbs and flows in terms of life, of course. So I I'm in a period where my kids are getting a little older. I have a little, I have a smidge more bandwidth than ever, which is thrilling, Jody. Let me tell you. Oh my, oh my gosh, like they don't need me to tie their shoes. This is just crazy. So they go to school. My my 16-year-old literally drives them to school, which is, I think we talked about very scary, but also incredible because I have an extra hour in the morning and in the afternoon. So it occurred to me that I have time and I was emerging, and I have emerged from frenetic, frenetic periods of life with sort of like, oh, I'm feeling numb. Like, what do I who I who who am I? Like, what do I like? I've been I've been focused on caregiving and taking care of others, and it's really outward focused. It's not inward at all. So I decided to be very introspective and just sort of navigate what I wanted. And when I read that line, I was like, oh, yeah, like hobbies, for example. What do I have? What do I do? And I started talking to other women and so many other women basically we we engaged in deep conversations on how we don't have hobbies because we feel like we have to be productive at all times.

unknown 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

That's the answer. I mean, that's that's the answer. We feel like we have to be productive. And when we're not productive, we feel guilty. We we it's the patriarchy, Jody. Um it's society. We we this is the society in in which we live where output is king or queen.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah, yeah. Amen. Reluctantly, she says.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, it's it's hard. Can we talk about a couple of quotes in your book that stopped me since we were just talking about that Cassie Holmes quote that stopped me in my tracks? Okay, so the Benjamin Franklin quote about and you you please, why don't you say it instead of me, but it was something like that. I remember this one. Okay, go don't turn it in letters.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Okay, just for the record. This is like a crapshoot. He might have used the word men, but I'll say I'll I'll I'll make it neutral. Some people die at 25 but aren't buried until they're 75. Woof. That's my response. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

I mean yeah, that's that's that's that's a mic drop.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

That'll get you.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Good old Ben.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Good old Ben. And then the Hunter S. Thompson quote, which I could read if you don't know, if you don't have it memorized, because I have it flagged here. Would you mind if I read it?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Please.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Also, Hunter S. Thompson, not necessarily like the epitome of of good choices in life, but he definitely lived a very interesting life and a I would say a very psychologically rich life, which we can talk about talk about later. Yeah. You're right. Okay, so this Hunter S. Thompson quote is incredible. Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

God does it for me every time.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

I'm obsessed with this. And I also feel like, and this is not a this is not what we're talking about here on this podcast, but I will just put it out there. Um, the body mention. Uh huh. I don't know, women, women in particular, we we we think that we should get to 60 and still look like we're 40.

unknown 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

And how messed up is that? Like if you have the privilege to live your, you know, I I had three kids, my body looks different because I was able to do that, right? Living until you're 60 or 70.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Oh, yeah. Thank you for mentioning the body. And I know we're not talking about it, but if we were talking about it, I would go into fascinating research around how the creaturliness and aging process of bodies sparks part of what's called terror management theory. Like it's like basically a it's a distortion, it's part of like our fear of death. And our bodies are these, of course, very vivid and visual reminders that we are slowly rotting corpses in the making. And for a lot of us, that doesn't sit so well. And so it's not just society saying, go fix your face, you you 60-year-old woman, or however old you are. But it's also just that, oh, we internalize and we realize that bodies are reminders that we are gonna age and then die, and then, oh, that wasn't part of my big master plan. Yeah. I love that. Just a little upbeat moment for us.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

No, but it's important. And I love, I love the Hunter S. Thompson quote because it I don't know, don't you just I mean, unless you're in a your cozy era, right? I mean, this is and there's there's that tension, right? There's there's the the people who want to live, and then there are people who are like um thrill seekers, right? Like so skydiving and whatnot. So like or or or riding motorcycles without a helmet, right? So not making good choices. Um, so there's there is a tension, there's a balance there, right? Have you have you encountered have you encountered this when you're gonna do it? Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, and I think that it's knowing yourself, like your your your profile, like we were talking about, because I think some of us, we may have quiet existences, but we're yearning for more. And let's just not dupe ourselves into saying, Oh, but I'm a homebody. Okay, love that. And like interspersing again your life with these moments, like you could punctuate it with this burst of like this big great trip. I I guess I I've seen a lot of profiles where there are people living quiet lives of desperation, to quote whatever the famous author was back in the day. And then having, you know, this thing where it's like you come alive in your one vacation a year, and that's what you're saving your life for, is that block. And then you do the vacation and you feel alive, and then you despondently come back to reality. And let's not trick ourselves into also feeling like that's the life you want to live. Again, I feel cautious about there's not a judgment, because again, if you know, I feel happy, I love, I love what I do, and I look forward to my week that I go when I do the thing, then we are there is no problem to solve. Keep living, keep loving. High five, cheers. And yet, I think we know we have that inner sense. And sometimes we're better with it than others. Like, you know, you may say, I'm very aware, I feel numb because I'm in this autopilot mode in my life right now. And I think that that may not be catastrophically problematic. That just might be like, how do I get some adventure built into this life I love and I want to love it more rather than just like holding on? And I love And then there are other times where we know we want to change full scale. And I think that that's like just it's listening, like we started talking about a minute ago. It's tuning in and being aware and recognizing it doesn't always have to mean a grand gesture sweeping your life away.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

I love that. And I love how you mentioned in the book, and you also just alluded to this, that I think a lot of how do I articulate this? It's okay if you love your work. Like that's a phenomenal. I I did career coaching forever. If you love going to work every day, that's phenomenal. That's wonderful. We're not this is not a conversation about how to get out of work and go do other things. That's a wonderful component of life. And that's it's it's rare, by the way, to really, really love your work. I mean, I I don't know what the stats are, but but it's it's not looking good in terms of people having meaning and pleasure in their daily work. But if you love what you do, that's phenomenal. And what we're, you know, what I'm a proponent of in terms of adventure year is just that is one component of your life, but there are so many other areas where you can breathe life into.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Okay. I'm we're like lockstep here because I think work has gotten a bad reputation in the world now where it needs to be a source of meaning and purpose in your life and like the mission. And um, I believe you can't actively dislike your job. We all know the engagement stats out there from Gallup, but I think that we are maybe better served in a reality where if your job isn't sucking the soul out of all of your orifices, like hold on to that and like to use your language, get a life outside of work that fills you up and lets you feel creatively fulfilled or socially fulfilled or community fulfilled or wherever, whatever you need, because then there's a different you showing up at work and going, yeah, okay, I'm gonna punch the clock and do my thing here. But this isn't the epicenter of me. This is a part of me. And you know what? Pretty cool that I get a paycheck. And then I'm gonna, oh, I can't wait tonight to go out to my glass blowing class with my friend.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yes, exactly. And that you're not, you're not your self-worth. That's that's where the problem come in, comes in, I think, for high achieving women, which is that the productivity and this, this the self-worth is wrapped around the productivity and the identity that we have often in our jobs.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah.

unknown 31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

That's hard.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Wouldn't it be interesting to shift in a magical world our identity and self-worth over to being more of the person who is the liver of life? You know, like I know a lot of entrepreneurs, and even as um female entrepreneurs say, because we're talking about women, there is still the bit of a badge of honor that could be external, like I'm supposed to represent how much I'm working, and or even that internal belief system, which is like, this is what I do. And and I was well indoctrinated into this world. I'm right here with y'all. And then sometimes someone was like, I'm gonna go start my own thing as an entrepreneur, which in theory buys you the ability to have flexibility in your life. I I am so guilty of this where I had this notion when I left corporate that I'm gonna, oh my gosh, my days, I could have this, like, imagine I would get work done, but then I would go pop out when we lived in Chicago. I've I always had this fantasy. I was gonna go just for a quick jaunt in the middle of the day to the Museum of Contemporary Art, you know, just tool around. I don't know. For some reason I was always in a great outfit, but that didn't really matter. And then I come back home and then when I do some more work, I was sitting with my ass in my chair the whole day because I was like, I must work, and then I had to work harder. And then what happened to this desire? What happened to this? And then it was there was another woman I knew who I heard her talking about her life, and I thought, but that's the life that I thought I want to live that. And it was that what if I start saying to people, not to make them jealous, because this isn't about the external, it's really again supposed to be about the internal, but like I'm so excited. I went to see a matinee this morning, you know, like back in Chicago, they had like a 10:30 a.m. matinee. And I used to go sometimes on my own when I finally started saying I'm gonna try and do these things, but it was owning up to it and also then encouraging other people, right? So it's like, what would it take to get to again, not being a society of braggers about all the leisurely activities we do because not everybody can fit it in. Like I also recognize there's the issue of time affluence and also not having that. But where we have it, when we curve it out, being able to be identity matched to I am excited because I enjoy recreation. I don't know. Maybe it's a fantasy world.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

I love it. I love that. And that leads me to my next question, which is about regrets. And you talk about regrets in your book. And I have also read the Dan Daniel Pink book on regrets, which is also excellent. And Daniel Pink blurbed your book.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Oh, he's a nice person.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

It's insane. You were very impressive. But talk to me about regrets and how do I not have any? Can you how how can I proceed through life without having any, please? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Well, I think it's important first to uh put them into two camps and we get to effectively dismiss one. Poof. And that would be the regrets of commission. And those are the like regrets in the traditional sense of the word, like, ah, I regret that we invested in that stock, or I regret that I did a thing, right? If you've done something and you regret it, you are immediately absolved because the good news is that psychology research shows that over time we tend to soften towards that stuff. I mean, you may be ruminating right now, but just get over it because, like, trust me, on your deathbed, it's not gonna matter. Because you know what will matter? The real thing that's gonna be plaguing you will be the other kind of regrets, which are the regrets of omission, which is the stuff you thought you might want to do, but you didn't take action on. And those are what I call like for my mom, the coulda, shoulda, woulda. So these are the wow, I'd always wanted to go back to school. Or what would well, what if I did apply for that job? Or what if I did get back on the dating app or you know, fill in the blanks? And so those are the things because psychologically we have this really fascinating imagination that goes, the what if like I could have been happy if, and we could we tend to create these alternate realities, and I get so motivated, I get so equally charged up and motivated because we have an opportunity, right? If you did the dumb thing, like if you got a DUI, again, it's behind you and it's done, let's move on. But oh, honey, if you're dreaming that you want to change your career and maybe try something different, or you want to move to Portland, or maybe you want to try changing your hair color, like let's just size these things because this is all large, small, micro, macro, then I call those pregrets because these are not regrets that have actually happened yet, because you're not dead yet. So this is a chance you can go. Well, do I wanna really look into moving to Portland? Because I could. You could. Nothing's stopping you. And that's one of those things where again, when you start going, I have 1882 Jackie Mondays left. It's like, what am I waiting for? I have nothing to lose. When you see it in the grand scheme of the grim reaper just kind of lurking in the shadows, because he's always there. He's always got like a scythe and a smoke in his hand. He's always kind of waiting. I'd be like, I have nothing to lose. I'm dying. He's coming for me, God knows when, probably not for a while. But he's coming for me. Why, why wouldn't I do the thing? Right? Get so, so excited.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I love this. I this is incredible. Like, yes. Yeah, I yes. You're sold. A thousand times, yes. That's from um, isn't that a line from Pride and Prejudice, the movie, anyway? Um I mean, I I'm sold, yeah, yeah, you've sold me. This is incredible. And I think it's just such a beautiful way to approach life. It really is. And and I think the you know, like the dark humor and the the fact that it's about death and it's like if you have, because if you have real if you've lost someone in your life, you see it so clearly, right? Like life is really short. It really can be short. I mean, I have I have um I have grand uh grandmother who's 95 and she's just doing great. So I was talking to my daughters the other day, kind of on this topic. I showed them your book, and I was like, I'm probably gonna live really long. You know, I'm probably gonna be like little mamamita who's 95 and still kicking. But I don't know, maybe not. I better get I better get moving on all these goals that I have because I have a lot. I'm I am a high achieving woman, Jody. I have lots of stuff on my to-do list. Well, thanks for bringing that up.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

And also just to not miss the beat, because you said something very importante about the when someone dies that you know and love, it can help you see the light. Let's not also forget those of us who, not me, but who have had any kind of brush with death.

unknown 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Maybe it's through an experience of a health scare or a close call car accident or something. These are things where I just find it fascinating to learn from the research about those people. Because I'm actually quite jealous. Like I want I have to whisper, I don't know why, but the I I really want to have a near-death experience because I want to see with that crystal clarity that those who have emerged from a brush with death have that fervor, you know, that I mean, they have priorities that have been reprioritized instantly. They know how to drop and let go of the banana stuff, it doesn't matter anymore. Who cares? They know how to appreciate life in a very now. This is someone listening might be like, yeah, I had breast cancer, I don't feel that way. And it's not true for everyone, but typically there is that heightened appreciation for life. So if those of us um have not experienced that, it's probably a good thing. Um and but we can learn from it and we can tune into it. And Jackie, something else you said around when you've lost somebody or if you've had a close call. The funny thing about us as humans is that because we adapt to everything, we just need constant reminders. So that's why, you know, we could maybe be inspired by, oh, I don't know, like our conversation, because it's just scintillating. And then we're gonna go ahead and maybe make a little decision today and go, oh, I'm gonna order a new thing at lunch because I'm gonna try the tacos because I normally do the burger. Great. But then we're gonna go on with our lives and kind of get back into like the usual. We need reminders. I need to be reminded to live. Uh, this is why I do this work, is because I need to be reminded to get up and get my nose out of the out of a book and get out there. So I just want to maybe normalize it too, and also say, like, we got to keep counting our Mondays. This isn't obviously a one and done conversation. We got to keep coming back to it and making decisions on the weekly in order to stay committed to being alive versus just being highly functioning zombies slowly marching to the grave.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

I love you. You're hilarious. And you mentioned having like um keepsakes or mementos, like literal memento moris, um, which I've been trying to figure out what I could have to remind me. Yeah, because I do, I do tend, I am one of those people that gets really excited about a book I've read, and then you know, and then you go on to the next book, right? And then it's like, so we're we'll we'll we're very good friends, and I will be reaching out to you all the time for you to remind me to seize, seize the day. We could just have a morning call. We could just do that. You're dying with cats and dogs. Um, but I do that's a great, it's a great idea to have something um that physically reminds you of that. So that's that is something I'm gonna I'm look I'm I'm pursuing actively. It's how you're looking around, like you're trying to figure out where to go. Yeah, because I've got like little statues, but oh my god, I've got this. I really like this.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

The you here, I'm gonna I'll send you like little skull guys. They're very cute. I've got a rant, like you could, I mean, trust me, you could tattoo. You could don't get me started on these ideas. We're gonna deck your whole place out. Comment is gonna be like, why is this the deaf emporium, mother?

SPEAKER_00 42:10

I love it. I love it. All right, we're we're gonna wrap it up now, although I could talk to you for like literally another three hours. So when we're thinking about the demographic here, the high achieving women who and you use the word autopilot a lot, which I love. So for someone who's listening who feels like they're stuck in autopilot or numb, and they don't necessarily have the luxury or the privilege to like overhaul their life. Yes. What's one and we've talked about that, we're not talking about these huge things they need to do, but what's one like small step? What's one small thing they could do this week to start looking at life a little bit differently? Okay, I love this so much.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Sit down, or if you're driving, do the voice memo narration and laundry list things that make you happy slash things that make you feel kind of alive. And the only caveat, I recommend doing 30. And you're gonna sit there and you're gonna be wide-eyed because at first you're gonna be like, I don't know. All I know is what other people like, what do I like? That's fine, but you're gonna it'll come and be like, I like picking flowers, or I like looking at the sunset, or I like strawberry banana smoothies. I don't care, just make a list. It has to be doable stuff, so you can't just say, I love the gelato at the Spanish steps in Italy. That you can make another list of things you like that are international and hard to get to or hard to do. So now you've got a little bit of a list of stuff that's really just lovely. Brushing your animal, your ferret, whatever you want to do, right? Make this list and then make it your goal within the week to just sprinkle in a couple of those things a couple of times. And it's remarkable. How we can say, I liked, oh, I liked you, I like coloring in a coloring book, or I like joke texting with my friend from college that I, you know, I haven't done that in a while. Just give it a like, just reintroduce it. It's no big time commitment, it's no big thing, but it's a vote of aliveness. And the good news is that it is like building a muscle where all of a sudden when you start to feel a little bit more alive because you've had the banter with that college friend, or you have finished coloring in one quarter of a thing you've drawn in your adult coloring book. Assuming you're doing adult coloring books, right? Yeah. Um, not the kid on that. But then you go, wow, I feel really that's gonna create, don't deny that that creates a little bit of a spring in your step that makes your next conversation better or your next work meeting better, or makes you more inclined to do the next thing that makes you feel alive. So just basically sit down and write out the damn list, okay?

SPEAKER_00 44:54

I love it. Yes, yes. Listen to her. She's very wise. Jody Wellman, you're incredible. I just am such a big fan. Um, everyone needs to buy your book and just do everything you say. Honestly. Okay. Done and done. So thank you for being on Get Alife. And I just I'm so delighted to start this new Memento Mori outlook on my life. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Oh, I can't wait to have you on board.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Thanks for listening today. If you enjoyed the episode, do me a favor and follow the show, drop a rating or a review, and take a moment, seriously, just one second right now, to think of a friend who would appreciate it and share it with them. That's how we keep the conversation going. See you next time.